Jarrett Dapier, Wake Now in the Fire

Steve Thomas: Jarrett, welcome to the podcast.

Jarrett Dapier: Thank you, Steve. I’m so happy to be here. I’m glad to finally connect with you, and congrats on over 300 episodes. That’s amazing.

Steve Thomas: Thank you. The podcast is almost as old as my son!

Before we get into the book and its whole backstory let’s talk about your backstory. You’re a librarian. What was your path to librarianship and also how did comics and writing fit into your early life?

Jarrett Dapier: Oh, I’m so glad to be asked that question. Comics and writing in my early life started with a real love of reading when I was little, and I was read to by my parents quite consistently up until I could read at age five or six. And my earliest love was The Cat in the Hat. My mom still talks about how she had to read that ad nauseam to me, over and over. So there’s a part of the rhythm and the rhyme of Cat in the Hat and Dr. Seuss in general that I think really informs my writing now. Also I’m a drummer, and that informs my writing big time because I’m just in love with rhythm. There’s not a ton of that in Wake Now in the Fire, but my three picture books all involve music and rhythm, and that’s really important to me.

But growing up, I never read superhero comics. This was the ’80s, and I didn’t have a comic shop in town, and I remember thinking, “Where do you even get comic books?” But luckily I got the Sunday comics and lived for the Sunday comics. I pored over it every Sunday, my parents got a daily Chicago Tribune, and I would pore over the comics on the daily. That led to me purchasing Calvin and Hobbes books, Peanuts books, The Far Side. Those were my three favorites, and I read them obsessively.

I started trying to write and draw my own comics when I was in fourth grade. I started a comic called The Purple Feathered Friends. And I thought it would be a club. I invited other kids at school to join the Purple Feathered Friends Club, and they were like, “What is that?” And I was like, “We just sit around and draw purple feathered friends, purple feathered birds doing purple feathered things.” And nobody joined, surprisingly. That’s okay because I just drew my own and I loved it.

But that’s really the extent of my comic writing in childhood. Going into middle school, but especially high school, where I had excellent creative writing teachers I really found my voice and what I wanted to write stories about, but also really early on and by junior year in high school, whenever we were doing writing prompts or any kind of just “write whatever you’d like” sessions during each creative writing class, I would really go off into sort of absurdist comedic writing. And I realized once I started writing children’s books that I guess I’ve always been writing books that would appeal to children or stories that would appeal to children, because my senior year in high school I remember writing a book from the point of view of a piece of dog food inside a bag and yearning for freedom and just waiting and thinking that when it got out and poured out it would be free finally. And so it’s just building up and then at the end it finally pours out and I think it ended even with “I’m finally free,” … right before being eaten, of course.

Steve Thomas: Fulfilling its life purpose!

Jarrett Dapier: Yeah. But by that point I wasn’t reading any comics at all. Again, I didn’t have access to comics. There were lots of bookstores, but I never ran across the Bone comics or any of the comics that would have appealed to me in the ’90s. So I got into creative writing and theater big time in college, but then post college it wasn’t until I read Persepolis and Maus by Spiegelman that I realized whoa, this is an entire medium that is incredible and spoke to me, and I loved both stories and I loved that they could be political, personal, and pictorial. And so I just ate them up.

Then I was working, at that point I was working at the ACLU of Illinois. I felt very passionate about First Amendment rights, especially the rights of students and teens, and from there I went to a magazine called In These Times, which is still in operation. It’s a progressive magazine out of Chicago. I wrote for their website. I also was their assistant publisher. But the 2008 downturn nearly closed its doors and we couldn’t be paid anymore. Now the magazine’s unionized and everybody’s doing really well, which is great. I’m so happy it survived, but I had to move on.

Thanks to my wife, she found a posting for a teen services job at Evanston Public Library, which is the town where I live, and it was a reader’s advisory role which I thought, “Oh my God, this brings together everything I’ve loved about my work so far,” which is reading and writing. I also taught reading enrichment classes before the ACLU advocating for teens and their right to read and also their right to have a space that is their own at the library. All of these things came to fruition or combined to be the perfect job. And so I really wanted it and thankfully I got it, and I’ve been in libraries ever since.

So it was 2009. And coda to that is that the librarian there had amassed an amazing graphic novel collection. So in the teen loft, which is that enclosed space at the library I think there were two entire shelves back to back that had graphic novels. And then as I worked there longer, we turned this corner that had a bunch of couches into our graphic novel lounge or comics lounge. So we would platform titles that we loved on the displays, because there were ample display space. So it was amazing to see. And it worked. Kids would come in on a Saturday at 9:00 AM, grab eight Narutos and read for six hours. And they’d look up. I don’t know if you have had that experience as a reader, “Oh my God, I need to eat.” It was hilarious, but I loved it. It was amazing. So I was exposed to way more graphic novels then, and then in 2013 the banning of Persepolis happened and I really got invested in censorship of comics issues.

Steve Thomas: Yeah. And like you say, that banning of Persepolis, that’s the backbone of the book. And you were part of that process as well. You were involved as a sort of as a character but I don’t think you were a character actually in the book, but you were part of that. What do you remember about the experience as it was happening?

Jarrett Dapier: Yeah, so I remember it very clearly. I was working my regular shift on a Wednesday night in March 2013, and I had Twitter open and Chicago Twitter blew up with the news of Persepolis by Marjane Satrapi being banned from all Chicago public schools, and I think it was thanks to students there that the word got out. But local education bloggers with a strong following picked up on it and then it just like tore across Chicago. It wasn’t just like Chicago politics, it was Chicago writers, everybody. And then of course Persepolis is so beloved it hit like comics Twitter, beyond Illinois and Chicago, and that really brought huge attention to it.

But I followed all that in real time read about it in horror, and then my little act of defiance was I got up and grabbed our two copies of the two volumes of Persepolis and I put them front and center in the room on display and said, “Read Persepolis.” And I was really heartened because couple days later I worked on a Saturday and they were all gone ’cause they’d been checked out. So it was great.

But, yeah, I just remember following it and then being as disappointed as many people when Chicago Public Schools stonewalled, pretended they had no idea what this was, it was just a glitch, a miscommunication and you should shut up and stop asking about it. And mostly people did because there were really big fish being fried by Chicago Public Schools, ’cause six weeks after the censorship attempt, Chicago Public Schools shut down 50 of their neighborhood schools in what was then I think still the largest school closure in American history. That was the legacy of Rahm Emanuel and another part of his legacy is the complete hemorrhaging of school librarians. Not just hemorrhaging, but like cutting of school librarians across Chicago Public Schools. Before he was mayor it was weird to find a Chicago public school without a library and a librarian. 2026, it’s weird if your school has one. And that’s thanks to his school-based budgeting and a lot of his neoliberal crap that he unleashed on the city and especially the schools.

But I was never satisfied with moving on. I was horrified, of course, by the school closures. I protested. But it was always in the back of my mind, what the hell happened with that Persepolis thing? Because they never answered who, what, why, or how this could have happened. But also, it stuck with me because of the incredible activism of the students. It’s almost like it’s serendipitous that the first school that one of these higher-ups in CPS visited to yank those copies of Persepolis, the first school that he visited happened to have a student body that was very in tune with political issues and activism as well as some really strong reader communities there. And that just blew up in their face.

The students, they activated in four days to get a protest on the corner of Western and Addison, highly visible corner in Chicago, and 80 to 100 people were there. Students mixed with the head of the Office for Intellectual Freedom at ALA, teachers from School of the Art Institute, Beth Hetland, and others showed up and it just became real news. It was covered by the Tribune and WGN, and Al Jazeera covered it. It was quite amazing, and it did make them walk back 90, I’d say 80% of the ban. 20% of it they obviously kept in place just to I guess save face, and then, the next year and subsequent years more teachers in CPS were interested in teaching Persepolis than ever before. So it really did blow up in their face thanks to those students.

And so that from my ACLU of Illinois, ACLU heart, I was very galvanized, inspired, and also just wanted to know more about those students. The next year in grad school I was in a class on literacy and reading, and I decided to base my thesis paper on the banning of literature and its effect on teen reading communities. And I thought I was gonna survey a couple case studies. But I ended up realizing, there’s a lot here with just the Persepolis story, so I just stuck with that and, that really, all that research and the work I did is the basis for the graphic novel.

Steve Thomas: What led you to wanna make that next step and say I’m gonna fictionalize this.” Number one, I’m gonna fictionalize it and make it a narrative, non-fictiony thing, and also what made you wanna make it a graphic novel? Is it because it was about a graphic novel that it was about, or you just wanted to tackle that challenge?

Jarrett Dapier: It was one of the definite first pulls was the idea of a graphic novel about the banning of a graphic novel. I just loved the sort of, I hate that this word is ruined by Mark Zuckerberg but the meta literary style of that, and I loved that. And then of course Art Spiegelman with Maus, that being like my first introduction to modern graphic novels. There’s a lot of meta features in Maus where he’s writing about writing the story that you’re reading and I, and that kind of work always inspires me. I love work that that manages to experiment with how a story is told.

So I was in a class on comics and reader’s advisory and the teacher there, Dr. Carol Tilley, she’s the one who blew up the story that Fredric Wertham, who really started moral panic against comics in the ’50s, that he falsified a lot of his research that he claimed proved that comics caused juvenile delinquency and so forth. So she was like a hero to all of us. She’s also the most down-to-earth, cool person and knows so much about comics. And so I floated the idea of “Hey, remember that Persepolis thing that happened? What if I wrote this graphic novel about the banning of Persepolis?” And she’s very dry and she just goes, “That could work.” And that’s all I needed. I ran with it.

But since I started working in teen services, a lot of things came together in my mind, ’cause I’d always wanted to write and I was trying to write for kids even as early as right after my undergrad years. And I would always have false starts or start something and then life intervenes. We had kids and I needed to make a living. But when I started reading YA literature, some of those first ones that I read, especially Shooter by Walter Dean Myers, I was so inspired by, speaking of experimenting with how a story is told, basically that book reads like a case file because it’s about a boy who commits a shooting at his school, but it’s like newspaper clippings about the event and journals from friends of his and I think police interviews. It’s like a scrapbook, and I loved that. And then I remember reading Cory Doctorow talking about, and I don’t know how true this is anymore since YA has become so commercialized, but Cory Doctorow was talking about that he thought YA writing is the last place in literature where experimentation is encouraged. It’s also accepted as we’ll try that because teens might like it.” It was really like the black sheep of the literature world until Twilight and Hunger Games really changed all that, some of it for the better, but I don’t see as much of that anymore, but there’s still books like there’s that book, I believe it’s Sadie that is told like it’s the transcript of a podcast, but it’s a mystery. So some of these do still break out, which I love.

Once I started reading those, I was really driven to write for teens. And again, I started a lot of things. I dreamed up a lot of things that I still to this day think, “That could still work.” But again, two little kids, working at the library also, so that was another motivation was oh, this is a story for teens about teens. And so a lot of things clicked for me. And that’s what I say all the time, I’m so inspired by the amount of connections between teachers and students with books and their own learning, and the fact that at that school, I discovered in my research there had already been established a Banned Books Club that met every Tuesday to read books that had been banned. They were floored that this was happening at their school and became leaders in a lot of the resistance. The way that different groups of active teens, whether they be newspaper writers, school newspaper writers, the Banned Books Club kids, punk rock kids who just knew how to organize a protest, all of them came together to really make it a big deal, and I was like, I wanna tell all those stories and how they come together.

I even interviewed teens who couldn’t make it to the protest, but the protest still had lasting effects on their understanding of themselves. And it was a very seminal event for a lot of those kids. I even saw two of them at my book launch for Wake Now. They came out to the book launch event and now they’re in their 30s, I believe, and they still remember it clearly and one of them told me about how he’s brought to bear some of the stuff with the Persepolis protest into his own work as a arts educator, and he also worked for a congressperson in Chicago and did some banned books stuff. So that was amazing, and it felt great.

At one of my book events in St. Paul, the parents of the kid who started the Banned Books Club, they came out to the event, and I didn’t know that they were there, or I didn’t get any confirmation that they were coming, but I had heard from their son that he was coming, that they were coming possibly, and at the end of the event, I looked at one of them and realized he looked so much like Levi, so I ended the event by saying, “I just wanted to point out that this kid Levi who started Banned Books was inspiring to me, eloquent and passionate and principled as a 17-year-old. And I have to imagine that a lot of that comes from the schooling, but also his home life and, big credit to his parents who I believe are sitting right here.” And there were gasps. And it turned out thankfully it was them.

Steve Thomas: How did you get connected with your illustrator on the graphic novel?

Jarrett Dapier: Once I had finished pretty close to a draft that they were comfortable sharing with an illustrator, we started looking and during that process we had been earmarking artists that we loved from the comics reading that I do all the time. Plus working in a library is such a wonderful resource, libraries are an amazing resource, but to be there every day and be able to be like somebody emails me and says, “What about this artist?” And I can walk out and grab all four of their books, right? It’s amazing to be immersed like that. I think it is why editors feel comfortable making me a equal part of the process of choosing, ’cause they know I know the field. We had a bunch that we were looking at, but none of them felt right.

The book was originally sold at Chronicle Books. Due to some shifting and some issues over there, it ended up getting sold to Ten Speed Graphic thankfully ’cause if it hadn’t been, it would’ve been shelved. Anyways, the art director at Chronicle had read In Waves by AJ Dongo and said, “Hey everybody, you have to read this this weekend, and please let me know what you think of them.” I read it. It made me burst into tears. I loved the art style. And thankfully everyone was in consensus on Monday about AJ, so we reached out. Yeah, once we saw AJ’s work there was no one else.

The preparing for production, for printing, phase, which basically stretched from October 2025 back to, I would say, January 2024. We worked so hard on it ’cause he delivered everything illustrated, and at that point it was almost a 700-page book. The original editor at Chronicle was like, “That’s fine.” And I felt deeply uncomfortable ’cause I was like, “Who is gonna read this? I’m glad you like it, but people are just intimidated by a book that big.” Also, I think it would have to be 50 bucks or something, so thankfully when it went to Ten Speed Graphic, the editor there, who had been the old head of Chronicle Kids, she insisted this needs to be cut at least 250 pages or so, and she printed it all out, laid it all out like a film editor would in her basement over a winter break, and came back with amazing cuts. They’re seamless. Her name’s Ginee Seo. She’s a veteran. She’s been in the industry since the ’80s. She is badass and just did amazing work, and it really was like having a film editor like Paul Hirsch or someone like that.

So it didn’t really change while A.J. was working on it, and then there were changes that we had to make when we saw the book all together, but A.J. really wasn’t involved anymore. He would supervise, but really things didn’t change except my biggest issue often came to the typography. The weight certain words would get. I knew that the humor of a character like Kendall came through the way she said things and how she emphasized them so hugely and dramatically, so I was always pushing for bigger lettering or lettering that popped out more. It was an incredibly meticulous process.

And, most of the credit goes to Ginee, but also G.B. Tran, the graphic novelist. He wrote Vietnamerica. He was a designer working on the book. He and the art people at Ten Speed and Ginee, they did incredible heavy lifting on this. I felt like I was working a lot but I knew they were combing it and making it better and better over and over. It was a very long process.

It was supposed to come out in 2022. There was the hiccup with Chronicle and then a pandemic. I think it came out at the right time though because we were all so in it during those years, 2020 to 2023, and so many books were unfortunately getting overlooked because people were so distracted and the censorship crisis is not going away.

Steve Thomas: And the coloring is interesting in the book because it’s mostly, I don’t know what the right artistic term is, but a kind of mono color wash, a blue wash kind of look to it except for the cover of Persepolis is red just to make it pop, I assume.

Jarrett Dapier: Yeah. I’m very proud of that one because they told me all along, “It’s gonna be two-tone, two-tone, two-tone,” and we picked the blue shades and I really pushed for that, ’cause we were looking at red shades, purple, and I kept being like, “It has to be blue. Chicago is blue. We’ve got the lake, the Cubs, the flag the Democratic machine. It is blue.” And so they went with that, and then I kept pushing for that red pop, and they were like, “We can’t. There just isn’t the budget for another color.” But I didn’t shut up about it, and then they surprised me two months later, they’re like, “Guess what? We can do the pops of red.” And I thought that had been a dead issue, but yeah, I love how it looks when it pops out like that.

Steve Thomas: And for those who have not read Persepolis, can you give a basic overview of what it is and ’cause I think the themes of that book make it almost an ironic book to be censoring and restricting.

Jarrett Dapier: Yeah, absolutely. I’m glad you mentioned that, ’cause that really played into a lot of people’s shock and outrage because like, any book, especially a famous book that gets challenged or censored, people are like, “How could they do that to this book?” But it really felt like a salient point with Persepolis, because it’s a slightly fictionalized story by Marjane Satrapi about a girl named Marji, so based on her own life, growing up in Tehran before and after the Islamic Revolution. So she had memories, and she depicts those in the book, of living a much more openly free and expressive life as a young girl in Tehran with parents who encouraged her to think for herself and read and be her own person. She discovered things like heavy metal and just being punk rock and cool, and then all of that fell to shit when the Islamic Revolution occurred and the morality police took over and the Veil was enforced and bilingual schools were shut down. Boys and girls couldn’t go to school anymore. Her entire life changed in the course of a couple months, almost like she was in an alien land but hadn’t gone anywhere. She’s spirited, free thinker, and very courageous and is not interested in censoring herself, and as an impulsive young person, that became very dangerous for her. So it’s really a story of her trying to maintain her identity while also absorbing the horrors of the shift in her society as well as her parents’ absolute terror for her safety.

The irony being that there’s a part early in the book, after the revolution when a friend of theirs who had been imprisoned because he was a lefty or protesting against the regime. He had been let out, and he told the story of a journalist that they knew who had been in prison with him, and that journalist had been tortured by being whipped and ironed and urinated on and then cut up into pieces, for the crime of reporting truth.

And this is really the stakes ultimately of censorship because it doesn’t just stop with books. There’s a quote I use in the book, “Censorship does not end on paper but on the skin of human beings.” And that story is horrifying to young Marji, and ironically, that was the spread in the book that got it censored in Chicago ’cause it’s one page and a vaguely drawn penis is seen urinating on a brutalized man’s back. Again, these are black and white, rather simple cartoon drawings. And it’s in the context of talking about a man imprisoned for exercising his right to free speech and then being murdered, and Chicago Public Schools are saying, “That is too much for our students. They should not see this.” It’s very ironic because it shows ultimately the consequence, the final destination of censorship attempts and social control. And they were exerting censorship and social control to try and block that information. So it had levels of irony that were just sickening.

Steve Thomas: Yeah, and I hope Persepolis is getting some more, I don’t wanna say publicity, that’s not the right word for it, but just obviously there’s interest in Iran again now for various political reasons in the world, just so people can understand Iranian culture a little bit in that way ’cause people don’t understand Iranian culture in America. We just have this vague ” bad guy” view in general. Hopefully everybody in other countries don’t now say, “Oh, all Americans are terrible people,” because maybe our country is doing things that we don’t like, but it’s like, countries are made up of people, and they’re not always what their government is portraying.

Jarrett Dapier: We have more in common with the people of the world than we do with any single billionaire and that needs to be kept in mind. Iran has a rich, incredibly rich civilization and culture going back thousands of years, way before the United States of America, and full of families and incredible writers, and thinkers, and people, and children. And to paint them all with a broad brush, I reject that and always have, but it is absolutely imperative that we understand we’re destroying an ancient civilization and culture, and rocking the world for our selfishness and greed. And I hope that Persepolis would, people would read it and realize, oh wait, like you said, there are people there. There are human beings. There are people who think for themselves. It’s the same in Russia. It’s the same in Hungary.

But yeah when Marjane Satrapi, when this whole thing went down, the Chicago Humanities Fest in 2014 invited her to come out and speak for their festival and she said she would. She’s so cool. She said, “I will only do it if you set up a daytime event for me to speak with Chicago Public School students. So set up two events for me. One of them has to be for CPS.” And they were like, “Great, yeah.” And I was lucky enough, the Humanities Fest shared that video with me. I got to watch it, and at that she said, “My book has never sold so well as it did after being banned in Chicago.” So it had far-reaching effects.

And I love nothing more than when people read my book and say, “It made me have to go read Persepolis or reread Persepolis.” I feel so happy when people say that. Yeah, I hope people are reading that and Reading my book, of course, but Persepolis is really the masterpiece that people should be turning to.

Steve Thomas: To wrap up, for librarians who might be dealing with the quieter forms of censorship where, even in the Chicago thing I think they were a little blundery about it, but they were trying to slip it under the wire of just, “Let’s just go into the schools, take the books, and leave.” For librarians who are dealing with that kind of thing, what advice do you think they can learn from the 2013 attempt in Chicago?

Jarrett Dapier: Yeah, I think all adults can learn from this, the speed with which the teens activated. They took the action of Chicago Public Schools seriously the minute Chicago Public Schools showed that they were being serious or that they intended to do this. We have such a protective instinct, but we have this instinct as adults with families, to not let in certain changes or comments that portend evil and destructive things because we often explain them away as they’re not serious or they’re just being a clown, but authoritarians are often clowns. They’re clowns not like Bill Irwin clown, but like dumbass clowns. They’re all over the place and scattershot. And what the teens did at Lane Tech was activate immediately and call attention to this as though it was the serious thing it was.

So I think librarians, and of course being one, I have incredible sympathy for how overworked, underpaid, we are and how much we’re expected to fulfill, fill the gaps in the social safety net. So we’re already hard-pressed, but I would say the second you get a whiff of censorship, report it to the Office for Intellectual Freedom and anyone you know in the community who would be receptive to them spreading the news to parents.

A perfect example is Niles Main District Library, where I work, when no one was looking in 2021 a small group of very conservative anti-library radicals basically took over the Board. They won by, it was, like, an election with 500 people voting in a town of 17,000. They won this slim majority, and they were well on their way to defunding the library entirely. It was all about tax dollars for them. But the staff, bless them, activated immediately and unionized, and so they actually were certified right before those people were sworn in, so then it became deadlocked. They couldn’t really do anything, and the staff wouldn’t let them.

But to my point about the community is that on top of that, a large contingent of people from Niles, these are people with little kids spending their free time organizing, and they created this coalition called the Save Niles Coalition. They showed up at every board meeting to just cause a ruckus, a stir, and good trouble, and eventually one of those bad board members quit, and so then it was three to three deadlocked. And now all of them are gone by 2026. They’ve all been voted out, but it was thanks to the staff activating and then the librarians in the area all working together to get out the word to each other, and also library patrons they knew would be outraged and do something and it worked, but again, it was very scary.

My coworkers, I wasn’t there at the time, I just helped with the protests just a citizen. But the librarians I work with are still dealing with trauma from that time because so many people quit. There were so many threats against them, and also threats against the collection and against their own privacy. They wanted to read their emails for proof of Black Lives Matter sympathy and stuff like that. It was really dire, and we’re in a much better place now. But yeah, they took it seriously the second they realized. But even then, like with Persepolis, it caught people off guard.

So unfortunately, I think we need to stay vigilant. And one thing that a lot of librarians, myself included, didn’t realize is that you can report any form of censorship or challenge to the Office for Intellectual Freedom. In fact, they encourage it. There was an incident in 2021 or 2022 where I was disinvited from an elementary school once the principal realized there was a same-sex couple in my picture book, Mr. Watson’s Chickens, and I was disinvited the night before. It was a terrible time. I had to fight so hard to get in front of those kids, and thankfully it all worked out, but it was because I protested, parents at that school spoke up, my illustrator took to Twitter and wrote amazing, beautiful posts about the lives of queer people and representation. So it got traction. It took a lot of work. It did work out, but my God, it wore us all out. I, of course, reported that one to the Office for Intellectual Freedom.

But a couple months earlier, I had been told at a suburban elementary school, “Hey, we’d love you to visit.” I was like, “Great. Can I read Mr. Watson’s Chickens?” And their response was, “No, you can’t read that one. Would you read your jazz book?” I was like, “Okay.” And Office, the Office for Intellectual Freedom folks told me, “Oh, you should have reported that one.” I was like, “Really? Just being told ‘We don’t want you to read that one,’ but you can still come?” They’re like, “Yeah, that’s censorship.” Because they told you as the artist wanted to say, “I’m gonna read this one,” and they’re like, “No, not allowed.” So really don’t hesitate to contact them, and then also let people know.

Steve Thomas: And it’s nice that the Office of Intellectual Freedom does play a part in this story too, the kids were able to connect with them and get their support too.

Jarrett Dapier: Yeah, the they received the Illinois Intellectual Freedom Award, a bunch of the kids who organized the protest about eight months later. It was really cool.

Steve Thomas: That’s great. Jarrett, thank you so much for coming on the podcast to talk about the book. It was a great read. And I think it’s… i’d heard about it, but this obviously gives much more depth to it. I know there’s a little bit of fictionalizing into it too but there’s so much stuff in there that even just I think the completely true facts in there, I think are enough to keep a compelling story. I hope everybody can get out there and get a copy of it, and check it out from your local library or get a copy at your favorite local bookstores.

Jarrett Dapier: Yeah. Thank you for having me on, Steve. I’m really happy to talk with you.

Steve Thomas: Great. Have a great day.