Steve Thomas:
This is Circulating Ideas. I’m Steve Thomas. My guest today is Danielle Borasky. She’s the vice president of NoveList. Danielle, welcome to Circulating Ideas.
Danielle Borasky:
Thanks, Steve. It’s great to be here.
Steve Thomas:
So I wanted to get started by going back and wondered how you got into libraries as a career in the first place?
Danielle Borasky:
Sure. I actually think it’s kind of a funny story. So I took one of those career aptitude tests in school when I was younger and the results came back and said that I would be good at being a librarian and a business owner. And at the time I thought, oh, there’s no way I want to be a librarian. It just didn’t seem that interesting to me. And it wasn’t because I didn’t like libraries. I actually loved going to the library. Just didn’t seem like the kind of job that I wanted to be doing. And then fast forward a few years, I actually had a couple jobs in libraries just while I was in school and then I was in graduate school or getting ready to go into graduate school, I should say, I’m thinking that I was going to get a degree in history and probably ended up as a professor but hadn’t quite applied yet. So I was working on that and I had just moved to North Carolina, was working at UNC Chapel Hill and I decided to just take a couple of classes that sounded interesting to me and I found one in the library school that I signed up for and went to that first day of class and the professor had us go around the room and talk about why we were there and what we were interested in. And I kind of had this “A Ha!” Moment when people were doing that because I realized that a lot of people in that room were talking about the things that I was also interested in and it felt like I had kind of found my people. And so I was pretty much hooked after that and ended up applying to library school instead of history.
Steve Thomas:
Yeah, it’s interesting sometimes like even people who love libraries don’t necessarily know what librarians do enough to know if that’s really what you want to do.
Danielle Borasky:
I think that’s absolutely true. You really don’t have an idea of what the profession is all about when you just use the library, which is maybe an interesting you know, dilemma for libraries today as they’re sort of struggling to talk about their importance and value in the community. I think we have a need to explain to people in the community what we can bring what skills we have and the benefits that a library brings to a community.
Steve Thomas:
Right. So right now you’re at NoveList, but what other libraries did you work at before you jumped over to a NoveList?
Danielle Borasky:
Sure. I’ve actually worked in almost every kind of library environment. I’ve worked in some public libraries both in New York and in North Carolina. I worked in an academic library, special library. The only kind of library that I have not worked in is a school library.
Steve Thomas:
And what led you to want to jump over to work at NoveList?
Danielle Borasky:
Sure, yeah, that was really just about being in the right place at the right time, I think. I had been working in libraries for years and I was working at UNC Chapel Hill, actually, had been there for about 10 or 15 years. And it was just a point in my career where I was looking for something different and looking for a new challenge and I saw this job at NoveList advertised and decided to apply for it. And from there it was actually a pretty easy decision to join because when I went in for the interviews, I was really pulled in by all the enthusiasm that I heard from the people who were interviewing me who worked here. I asked, many of them are very similar question I just said, what do you like about working here? And the answer, it wasn’t exactly the same for each person, but it was a really similar theme of feeling passionate about what they were doing and really enjoying their work. And I just wanted to be part of a place like that. It sounded great.
Steve Thomas:
So what do you like about working at NoveList?
Danielle Borasky:
That’s a good question. Yeah, so it’s probably along those same lines. I mean, feeling like your work matters is, it makes all the difference. It makes it easy to get up in the morning and go to work because you feel like what you’re going to do that day is important and make people happy. I think that’s the other part too. We have some customers who are just so enthusiastic about what we offer and knowing that that reaction is ever present just is really satisfying.
Steve Thomas:
And can you talk a little bit about the different role you, you’ve had a couple different roles that NoveList of what you’ve done there so far and where you are now?
Danielle Borasky:
Sure. Yeah, so I started in marketing and then was promoted to Director of Sales and Marketing. And my most recent role that I was promoted into this year is Vice President of NoveList. So we’ve, it’s been a year of transitions here. For anybody who is familiar with Novelist, you probably know that we had cofounders who were here for more than 20 years, Duncan Smith and Roger Rohweder. So they started NoveList and led it for a really long time and both of them have moved on to doing some other things in retirement. And so I am now leading NoveList and so that, it’s been an interesting eight years that I’ve been here, and I’ve gotten to see many different sides of the business and it’s an exciting time as well to give us an opportunity to kind of rethink what we’re doing and try some new directions.
Steve Thomas:
And what is the day-to-day life of the head of NoveList? What kind of thing, what kind of things are you doing that people would want to know about?
Danielle Borasky:
Well we have sort of a running joke about…
Steve Thomas:
Lots of meetings?
Danielle Borasky:
The meetings, yes, it is many, many meetings. Get to be interviewed on podcasts, which is fun. I recently attended a conference and got to do some speaking about reading and readers advisory. So it is a very varied role and I would say it spans everything from thinking about where our products are going to go in the future to budgeting for what we’re going to need to spend money on in terms of staff and other resources. Thinking about the sort of customer-facing side of things and how we’re going to talk about what we do and how we’re going to get feedback from our customers. So there’s just a lot of different parts, which I actually love. That is the kind of job that I like to have is really one that challenges me in lots of different areas. And this is, this is all of that wrapped up together.
Steve Thomas:
I probably should have jumped on this earlier. But for those people, minor little minority who may not know what NoveList is, can you just let the listeners know what NoveList is?
Danielle Borasky:
Oh, sure. And that it’s actually not a super simple answer, but I’ll try to give one. So, cause it’s actually a whole product line, right? So it started as a single product called NoveList which is a tool, a database that people can use to find the books that are right for them. We have grown from that one idea into multiple products. And so now today, NoveList has multiple interfaces for different age groups and combinations of books and readers. We have catalog enrichment which is our NoveList Select line and we have Library Aware, which is about marketing and outreach for libraries and linked data as well. Which is a way to sort of get libraries visible on the web. So the basic idea though is really to connect readers, books, and libraries that sort of underlies everything that we do.
Steve Thomas:
Right. How is it different, because I think a lot of people are not sure what the vendor side of things is. I mean because we’re all sort of working for the patron ultimately and connecting them with the right book like you just said. But how is it different working for a vendor as opposed to working in a library?
Danielle Borasky:
So the main difference for anybody who’s ever worked in a library with the public is that there’s, there are no patrons so there is no public, and that takes a little while to adjust to definitely. But about half of our staff here, our librarians have worked in a library before and the other half are fans of libraries. And so one of the things that I enjoy, even though no longer being in that library environment is that we have a lot of library love here. So we talk about libraries all the time and so sometimes it doesn’t feel all that different, and then other times I’m reminded that it is very much different. But I do feel very lucky to be working in a vendor environment that’s still tied to libraries and the success of libraries. I love that what I do matters to libraries and that I am working on behalf of libraries.
Steve Thomas:
And about, I didn’t prep you for this one, so you may not have an exact number, but how about, how many people do you have on your team? How many people work for NoveList?
Danielle Borasky:
Yeah, no, we have between 50 and 60.
Steve Thomas:
Okay, and yeah, and I know you have a lot of contributors and stuff, as well that contribute to things as well, but.
Danielle Borasky:
Right, yeah, the 50 and 60 is our onsite staff and then we have a good number of external contributors. I don’t have that number.
Steve Thomas:
Okay. A lot of the hot buzz about libraries is always getting into new things, 3D printing makerspaces, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, which is all exciting in its own way. But we also want to keep that connection with books and reading. And why do you think that’s important that we keep that and not just go into all these tech stuff and get away completely from books and reading, and how does NoveList assist librarians with that connection?
Danielle Borasky:
Sure. So, yeah, I mean, I agree with you. Libraries have a lot of cool things going on. The whole makerspace thing I think is really creative. I love, I’m a kind of geek about data, so the whole open data initiative that I’ve heard a lot about is interesting to me. And having been a librarian for 20 years, a lot has changed just in 20 years about the profession. And all of that I think is valuable stuff and I think it’s exciting that libraries are part of it, but I really do believe that books will always be part of the core mission of what libraries do. I think we need books in our lives. We need stories to help us explore and learn and become better versions of ourselves. And I think libraries are the places where books and stories are valued in the community. I actually just gave a talk when I was in Kansas City at the unconference there about how libraries can become better advocates for reading. And the main reason why I think we need to do that is because if libraries are about making their communities better, reading is a thing that can do that. I read a story about Sonia Sotomayor, who is one of our Supreme Court justices, and she was talking about her childhood, where she grew up poor and didn’t think that she would ever have been able to imagine becoming a judge. But she said, you can’t imagine possibilities that you don’t even know of. She said that reading books, however, gave her a view into other things that might be possible in her life and that she was able to envision her life differently, so she felt that books really gave her that future. And so that’s why I think that libraries have to keep books as a priority front and center because we need people to be able to envision better lives for themselves. So I feel really, really passionate about that. And so I think libraries will continue to, to hold that as their priority. And you asked a little bit about how NoveList helps, and I think we’re all about matching readers with books, but the key to that is not just any books. It really doesn’t matter what I think is a good book or what I like to read, what really matters is if it’s the right book for you. And NoveList is all about finding ways for you to sift through all the books that are out there and find the ones that are a good match for you.
Steve Thomas:
Right, and that’s that core of the readers’ advisory thing that we’re finding the right book for the right person. NoveList is a great tool to help librarians with that because it is hard sometimes when you’re, somebody’s coming up and asking like, you’ve never read a romance book in your life, but somebody who’s big romance fan, how do you connect them to the right one when you don’t have the knowledge in your head?
Danielle Borasky:
Right. It’s a little scary actually. And people, I think who aren’t, librarians tend to assume that librarians have read all the books in the library. And that’s impossible. So yes, you often need something to kind of be your secret weapon and supplement your knowledge, personal knowledge of books.
Steve Thomas:
Yeah. And I think reading is kind of the core of that learning that you were talking about, we need to keep learning, but I actually do even like just the physical book itself. I read ebooks, I read stuff online all the time too. But it’s just, I just feel like it’s such a good technology in itself. It’s just a good compact thing that goes well and you can mark pages and then, I don’t know, just the physical object itself is not just, you know, it’s not just “I’m an old librarian and I want to smell books” and whatever. It’s just, it just works so well.
Danielle Borasky:
Right. No, I agree with you. I am a print book reader. I’ve tried to love ebooks and they’re great when traveling, but I really prefer to have the physical book in my hand. And you’re right. It’s a great technology that stays around for a really long time. So…
Steve Thomas:
Yeah, I’ll take my Kindle or just read on my phone or iPad or something when I’m traveling. Cause yeah, I do very much appreciate not curing an extra bag just with a pile of books.
Danielle Borasky:
I do have a big stack of books next to my bed, but I really can’t take those with me when I’m traveling, so.
Steve Thomas:
Right. So, like you said, NoveList helps make that connection. What are some of the more popular features of NoveList that you feel, that either from your internal stats, you can see people are using or just from the feedback you get from librarians or patrons? Like what’s getting used on NoveList a lot?
Danielle Borasky:
Sure. I’ll start with, you know, kind of what people tell us they’re excited about, cause we do get lots of feedback from librarians. And I think that one of the things we hear a lot is that our book lists are very popular. We have more than 3000 of them in NoveList that our staff put together. I think people like them because they’re quick and easy. You can just print it out, and we keep them up to date so you don’t have to do any work. And one of the most popular series in those that we have is called our “For fans of…” lists. And these are recommendations that are based on popular culture. So if you’re like me and you’re a fan of the TV show This Is Us, we have a list of books that you might like to read that are similar to that show. So we’re just paying attention to all the things that people are enjoying in pop culture, whether it’s TV shows, movies, music, that kind of thing. And we will recommend books that are related to those things. So we’ve gotten some really great feedback on that kind of thing, extending the idea of reading into other things that people enjoy. And in terms of data, that’s a great question for me cause I love data. And my favorite thing is actually when data manages to surprise us a little bit and maybe challenge our assumptions. So we were having this one conversation here about a feature and a lot of us assumed that it just wasn’t that important feature. We just didn’t think that people used it a lot and then we put it at the bottom of the page. And then we did this in the wrong order, then we looked at the data. And it was actually a heavily used feature up near the top, and that was even after we had moved it to the bottom of the page, it continued to be very heavily used. So we’re now actually starting to be a lot better about looking at data ahead of time before those decisions. And I’m excited to push us in that direction of gathering even more data about what people are doing.
Steve Thomas:
I recently attended a webinar about a new feature that you guys got that’s about themes? Can you talk about what those are and how that can help librarians with their readers advisory sessions?
Danielle Borasky:
Yeah, themes are awesome. Yeah, we’ve gotten some really great comments and feedback from librarians about them. So themes are basically short phrases that describe what a book is about. We think of them as the hook that pulls you into the story. So, some examples, cause I think it’s always easier to understand them with examples are things like “robots with emotions” or “love in a small town.” Or one of my favorites is “books about books.” So all of those are themes and you can see how they might pull together books from different genres or different kinds of books pulled together under a similar theme. And the thing that I really like about them is that they use that kind of informal, natural language that most readers would use when they’re describing books to their friends. And I think for librarians that’s exciting because it gives them a way to talk to readers about books that feels really natural and that readers can immediately understand with no explanation needed. So if somebody is telling you about a book that they liked you can reply and say, “Oh yeah, okay, so I can find you other books that are like that.” And so using themes really helps you pinpoint the books that share the common thread that that reader enjoys. And I am a fan of the fact that they cross genres and help people explore books in ways that they didn’t expect. So I think a lot of times people get, not stuck, but they know they like a certain genre, they read that genre, they like mysteries, they read that. But themes and some of our other story elements that we have in NoveList can really help you explore other kinds of books that you had no idea that you liked.
Steve Thomas:
Yeah, and I like where you can kind of mix and match things to build something so you can say you want “humorous stories about robots with emotions” and things like that too.
Danielle Borasky:
Right. Yeah. The combination of the, the story elements is really powerful.
Steve Thomas:
I wanted to come back to something that you had mentioned earlier about the different age group that you got, cause, do you find that that’s been a more helpful thing to have that K – 8 package you’ve gotten then the, just the whole complete package is that, has that been helpful, like, I guess getting into the school market and things like that?
Danielle Borasky:
Yeah, it has. We have four flavors of NoveList. We have two that are for all ages and two that are for K – 8. And so some of them have fiction, some have fiction and nonfiction, some have audio books. So you can, well, I think that what I think is good about that is that people can choose the flavor of NoveList that is right for their audience and their library community. And yes, I think narrowing it down to the K – 8 audience is really good because younger readers I think have different needs. And so sort of focusing in on the books that they really like is helpful in a school environment, it’s helpful in the children’s room at the public library. So yeah, I think and actually I have a funny story about that. So my son just started at this new school and so I don’t actually know a lot of people there, but I was at like the parent night and the teacher was talking about the fact that they were going to have this big reading initiative and she said, “And our new librarian is gonna show the kids how to use this tool so they can find books that they like to read!” And she was going on about it and I was like, I wonder what they’re using. And then they said it was NoveList, and I was so happy. But I think that that’s a good example of, for a school like using it to help an individual student find the books that they are going to be excited to read it is a great example of why you’d want that kind of youth focus.
Steve Thomas:
And do a lot of the features like themes and stuff like that go across both packages. I mean, is that available in K – 8 as well?
Danielle Borasky:
Yup. Yeah. Those story elements are available in all of the flavors.
Steve Thomas:
And you said there were sort of two different ones. Can you talk about the differences between the two different K – 8, and the two different all ages?
Danielle Borasky:
Oh sure. Yeah. So there’s plus and regular. So the plus versions have fiction and nonfiction and the regular versions have fiction only. And then in NoveList Plus, which is the all ages version has fiction, nonfiction and audiobooks. So we actually have a chart that shows people, depending on what you’re looking for, this is the product that you want to choose cause it’ll have all of these titles in it.
Steve Thomas:
So NoveList is really good at integrating with different ILSs and discovery layers and all kinds of things like that with NoveList Select. Can you talk a little bit about NoveList Select and why that sort of integration is important to you all?
Danielle Borasky:
Sure. Yeah, so NoveList Select started as an ILS integration and we actually integrate with most of the ILS systems that are out there, so Sirsi Dynix, iii, all those. And it’s important I think because a catalog is the number one place that most patrons are using to interact with the library. So we want to be where people are when they’re using the library. And I think that, you know, having NoveList recommendations in the catalog means that you don’t go away empty handed. You find, even if the book you’re looking for is checked out, there are more ideas there for you or the next time you’re coming back to the library, here’s a list of books that you’re gonna want to look at next time you’re here. So it’s really inspiring people with some new ideas for what to read and making sure that the library is the place that they come to for discovering some new books. And we’ve then taken the idea of putting that in the catalog and expanded that to some other channels as well. Just recently. So we are putting NoveList recommendations in selfcheck kiosks, in mobile apps, in digital signage. And I think, you know, we just want to be everywhere that readers are when they’re using the library. And so that’s our goal is to try to be in all of those places where we can be useful.
Steve Thomas:
It’s great because it’s such a nice thing, especially I know with like the self checkout things, you can list like other books like that on the receipts and stuff too. And that’s really, that’s pretty cool.
Danielle Borasky:
Yes. Yeah. I’ve heard somebody describe those receipts as the best bookmark ever. So you print out your receipt and it’s your bookmark for that book. And if it has some ideas for what to read next, even better.
Steve Thomas:
It’s great the kind of stuff you can do now with just, I mean with that kind of thing, but you can also put, “You saved this much amount of money by using your public library!” on your receipt and so much so many great things we can do now with integrating things into the catalogs, and I’m very happy to have companies like NoveList that want to do that.
Danielle Borasky:
Yeah, I’ve seen some of those, the “you saved this much money.” I think that’s a great reminder for people of the value of the library. Absolutely.
Steve Thomas:
Can you talk a little bit about Library Aware as well? I know that’s your… I get the newsletter for that. I know there’s more to it than just the newsletter, but…
Danielle Borasky:
Sure. Yeah, I’d be happy to. So, you know, one of the things that we know about libraries is that most people in a community are really not very aware of what their library has to offer. And I think in some of the research that we’ve looked at, I mean, it’s as low as 20% of people feel like they have a good understanding of everything that the library offers. So we know that libraries need some help with that and need to get better at telling people what they can do for them. So a few years ago we created a product called Library Aware, which is basically a way for libraries to share what they have going on and what they can do for the people in their community. And so we have built this tool to include lots of ready-to-go templates with libraries in mind. So you can find templates for flyers and bookmarks and e-newsletters that are all ready to post in your library or send to your patrons. And all of it with the goal of getting people to come and use the library. So we are, that is an area of focus for us right now. We’re continuing to build up Library Aware, so that it can be the best tool for libraries to communicate their value because we want to make sure that libraries remain essential to their communities. And so that’s, you know, part of why we want to do that, and we’ve definitely seen that it’s working. We have customers who have had dramatic increases in usage of the resources that they’ve promoted using Library Aware. So it’s exciting.
Steve Thomas:
So is there anything else coming up for the future of NoveList, like specific features or just kind of generally that you’d want to share?
Danielle Borasky:
Sure. Well, so, we do, we’re working on a couple of really exciting projects right now that I probably can’t share too much about just yet, but the one thing that I’ll say about them is that they are the results of some really fantastic cross-team sprints that we did. And just the process of going through that brainstorming together and giving ourselves the freedom to explore some new ideas. It was really energizing, and I think we have a fantastic team here. I get lots of personal satisfaction from all their enthusiasm. So I think I feel really confident that we have some exciting things coming. And I guess the other thing I want to say is, since we talked a little bit before about the changes that NoveList went through this year, and we had a change in leadership, it’s really a great opportunity for us. And so we are taking that opportunity to ask some questions, rethink what we do, and also take the time to listen to our customers and to librarians, and we shouldn’t ever get too comfortable thinking that we know exactly where we’re going because libraries are embracing a lot of change right now. And I want us to be right there with them embracing change and looking to the future. So I don’t know that we have all the answers, but we are going to really work hard at figuring out where libraries are going and then try to get them there.
Steve Thomas:
Well, and I think things like NoveList Select will certainly help.
Danielle Borasky:
Absolutely. Yup.
Steve Thomas:
So this episode is gonna come out at the end of the year. So we’ve got a little bit of time left for the month, but what’s been your favorite book that you’ve read this year?
Danielle Borasky:
Sure.
Steve Thomas:
Doesn’t have to have come out this year, just that you read this year.
Danielle Borasky:
Yeah. So I was going to say I have a favorite, but I think it’s a little old. I’m usually a little behind on my reading. So my favorite one that I read this year was Homegoing by – I’ll probably mispronounce the name – but Yaa Gyasi, I think it is. But it was just a really fabulous story that spans generations of a family and it had this, it was written in this beautiful language, and it’s one of those books that’s just stayed with me.
Steve Thomas:
Well that sounds like a great book, and I’m sure you could find it in NoveList to find out more about it.
Danielle Borasky:
Yes. I’m pretty sure you can. It’s got some great read alikes too. That’s one of the actually the dangers of working here. There’s lots of books on my to-read list, but when you finish reading a book, that’s the best thing in NoveList is you loved this book and you want to know what you can read next and you can go in and look at some of the story elements about that book and then find something that is kind of similar to it that hopefully you will love as well.
Steve Thomas:
Right. You can kind of do some self readers’ advisory.
Danielle Borasky:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Actually, yeah, that’s an interesting point because that is one of the things that I’ve been encouraging people to do. Cause I did this and it was all eye opening. I looked up a couple of books that I’ve really liked and to see what they had in common, and there were some threads of things that they shared, which kind of was, you know, instructive for me. Like, oh hey, you like to read character-driven books. And it gives you a new way to then understand your own reading style and what books you’re gonna want to look for in the future. So yeah, I encourage people to do that kind of research.
Steve Thomas:
Yeah, that’s interesting. Cause I did a thing with my staff earlier, where I made a list of all the genres we have in the branch and told people to list one book that they’ve read from every genre on that list.
Danielle Borasky:
Oh, awesome.
Steve Thomas:
And so they got to see the kind of their gaps of, “Oh, I’d never read this before. I’ve never read this before.” And, but then they can hear that… everybody shared. So they kind of got to hear about what other people like about things.
Danielle Borasky:
That’s really great. I think it’s fun to sort of also see where the expertise is on your team, and who’s really good at at one versus another. So yeah, a great exercise.
Steve Thomas:
Yeah. I’ve found when I’ve done book clubs and stuff in the past that the, I can’t remember what the section is called, but where you have, where you can learn about about a genre on NoveList. There’s like a section that tells you about, this is what mysteries are and it’s broken down really far ’cause I got to like police procedurals or something even there’s like an explanation of what that was and some specific titles so that was really helpful to just, even if I know in my head kind of what it is, but just something to help talk with a group about and give some ideas.
Danielle Borasky:
Yeah, we didn’t really get into any of that, but we do have a lot of materials in NoveList for people to teach themselves about books and genres and what is this kind of genre mean? What do people like to read when, or what do they read when they like mysteries, that kind of thing. And you’re right, you can go pretty deep into some of the sub genres. So it’s a really, really valuable tool, I think for teaching yourself about what’s out there.
Steve Thomas:
Well, thank you, Danielle for so much for talking to me for the show. It was very interesting to learn about what goes on inside of just a vendor, but then even, I mean, one of the bigger ones, especially for public libraries, I know that you work with other types of libraries as well, but I’m assuming the vast majority of your market is public libraries…
Danielle Borasky:
Yes, that’s true.
Steve Thomas:
So thank you for coming and talking and letting the listeners know all about your work. If they wanted to follow up with you to ask any questions, how can they get in touch with you?
Danielle Borasky:
I would be happy for folks to email me questions or comments. You can reach me at dborasky@ebsco.com.
Steve Thomas:
All right, well, thank you so much, Danielle.
Danielle Borasky:
Thanks Steve.
Circulating Ideas 