Sandra Hirsh

Steve Thomas: Sandy, welcome to the podcast.

Sandra Hirsh: Thank you so much. I’m pleased to be here.

Steve Thomas: How did you get started in librarianship as a career?

Sandra Hirsh: Well, actually I was born into the profession. My mom was a librarian. She was actually very well-known and very impactful librarian. Her name was Gail Schlachter and she was a true inspiration, but it wasn’t a natural first love for me. While I grew up in the field of library and information science and I attended American Library Association conferences as a kid and I went through all the exhibit halls collecting all the free swag. I always vowed I wouldn’t be a librarian at that time. I think it’s probably one of those things where you kind of want to rebel and do something different. So that wasn’t actually my main goal.

My mom used to take us always whenever we’d go on vacation, if we went to Hawaii, we’d have to go to the library instead of go to the beach and we’d have to look her up in the card catalog to see her publications and whether the library actually had any of them. I don’t know. That wasn’t very inspiring at the time, but as I grew older and I went to school and I got my bachelor’s degree in political science and international relations from UCLA, at that time when I graduated, everybody who majored in that went to law school, but I always knew law school wasn’t for me. That wasn’t my passion or interest, but I actually didn’t know what I wanted to do.

I was a little bit lost, and that’s why my mom came into play and really made a huge impact on me when she gave me some really sage advice. She said, “You know, you might consider going to library school because everything that you’ll learn in library school will be useful to you, no matter what else you might later decide to do.” And so that really appealed to my practical inclinations. And then she also said, “This would give you some degree and some credentials that would allow you to always be employable.” Again, a very practical approach.

So having no better ideas at the time, I applied to library school and I got an amazing opportunity to go to the University of Michigan’s library school. I got accepted into what they had then it was called the Library Associates program, which was an amazing program because it gave me a halftime library appointment in the chemistry library actually, a great fit for a poli-sci major. Also they covered my tuition, but the focus was on academic librarianship. It was such an exciting heady time for me going to library school. It was a time of a lot of transition, email was the new thing, and CD-ROMs were new. And there was a big focus on focusing on the end user experience and online public access catalogs, and all of those new developments, I thought were really interesting and piqued my interest and made me want to continue and pursue a career in library and information science, which was the biggest surprise possible, because, as I said, I had vowed I would never do that.

And that led me to actually apply for a range of opportunities, including applying for PhD programs because by the end of my master’s degree, I thought, “Oh, well, this is training me to be an academic librarian and if I want to ever be an academic library dean, then I probably need a PhD.” So I went to get a PhD at UCLA, went back there, and I got my PhD and ended up not going into the direction that I thought I was going to in terms of being an academic librarian. Instead I ended up going into academia, and I went to be a professor at the University of Arizona.

And then my career has taken a lot of twists and turns. I worked in Silicon Valley industry for a number of years in a wide range of roles before coming back to academia at San Jose State as the iSchool Director and now as Associate Dean for our college.

Steve Thomas: I love that you got your PhD for practical reasons, too, that, “Oh, well, it’ll help me in my future careers!”

Sandra Hirsh: It’s true. I’m very practically minded.

Steve Thomas: You mentioned you went to Michigan and someone you met there was Joe Janes…

Sandra Hirsh: Yes!

Steve Thomas: ...who later wrote a book called Library 2020 and your book, Library 2035, is a continuation, kind of, of that. Can you talk about how that transition happened between those two books?

Sandra Hirsh: Yeah. Well, I was really pleased to have the opportunity to work on this book. I got a call from my publisher, Charles Harmon, who asked me if I would be interested in working on this book and building on the great work that Joe Janes had done in the initial work of Library 2020. I’ve known Joe for a long time. I was a master’s student at the University of Michigan when he was a professor, so I was really honored to have the opportunity to continue and build on his great work.

Steve Thomas: And when you were starting to think about taking this on and you were going to be the one at the lead of this one, what are some of the developments in the field over the last decade that prompted you to be interested in taking it on?

Sandra Hirsh: So when I was thinking back to when the book was published around the year, I think it was 2013. So it’s been more than a decade since the last publication, and if we reflect on what has happened in the last decade, there’s been some really unprecedented changes and events that have occurred that even the best fortune teller wouldn’t have been able to predict. We’ve had some unprecedented events, including the COVID-19 pandemic. That had a huge impact on libraries, forcing them to close overnight and then pivot to delivering all kinds of important and valuable services in new ways that they hadn’t done before. We’ve had the dramatic expansion, explosion of artificial intelligence that is pervasive in all kinds of ways, impacting libraries and our everyday life, and so there’s huge changes there.

We’ve seen other more global changes in terms of the kinds of shifts in terms of some of the social unrest that we’re experiencing, different economic stressors. We had the 2020 election and the increasing political divisions that we’re seeing, and these all have implications for libraries and our communities.

And then we’ve also been seeing, related to that, some of the dramatic increases in book bans and materials challenges that are placing restrictions on our freedom of access. So all of these seem like it was a really important time for us to do another review and some deep thinking about what the future holds for libraries and how they’re going to change and continue to evolve in light of all of these external factors.

Steve Thomas: Yeah, a lot of predicting the future, sort of like in science fiction, you’re evaluating the present almost as much as you are trying to figure out the future itself. You’re just seeing the future through the lens of the present.

Sandra Hirsh: That is exactly true, and that comes through in the book as well. A lot of the thinking is grounded on the present as we’re extrapolating and trying to imagine what the future will hold.

Steve Thomas: When you were gathering your contributors together, how wide or specific of direction did you give them when they were coming up with their topics and their essays?

Sandra Hirsh: In this instance, I really leaned into the same prompt that Joe James gave in the Library 2020 book, and so I left it very open just like he did. I used the same exact one, which was “The library in 2035 will be / must be / must not be / will not be / can’t be…” and let them fill that in any way they wished to approach the question. So we heard from people in terms of how they approach that in a wide range of ways, and I purposely invited a range of people to the conversation that I knew would lead to a diverse set of responses to this question as well.

And in addition to that prompt for the book, and we’ll probably talk about this in a little bit, but I also did a corresponding webcast interview series with the contributors, and in that, I gave them a slightly different prompt as one of their questions, and I gave them the challenge of asking them to summarize their vision of the future in six words or less. So that was another type of prompt I gave, but not in the book itself, that was more for the webcast.

Steve Thomas: Well, we can talk about the webcast once we’ve brought it up. What made you want to add that on as a n addition to the book?

Sandra Hirsh: The idea of doing the webcast came out of my textbook that I edit for the library and information science foundational courses. I have a book called Information Services Today: An Introduction. And this is a very large, much larger book, and it has a lot more chapters, but I had thought for that book that it would be useful to have the students have the opportunity to hear and see some of the people and some of the leaders that were contributing to that book and to build upon some of the content that was in the book.

And I have gotten a lot of really positive feedback from that from students who’ve told me how impactful that was to them, how much they appreciated that. And so as soon as I started thinking about this book, I knew I wanted to do that with this book as well, because I thought that these are such important contributors and some of the most impressive people and to actually have the opportunity to see them and hear them and have them talk a little bit more to build upon the content and their ideas that they surfaced in the book, I felt would be an additional contribution. So I definitely feel that it would be something I would do again, because I feel it really brings the author’s voice to life and allows them to provide additional insights and perhaps even shifts in their thinking from the time that they actually did the writing for the book.

Steve Thomas: Did any of the essays, when you were reading them as they were coming in, did they challenge your thinking about the field, like, “Oh, well, I didn’t think of it that way?”

Sandra Hirsh: Yeah. So, I wouldn’t say that it exactly challenged my thinking. I would say that it’s more that I was struck when I was reading the chapters by some of the commonalities and perhaps one of the biggest, most pervasive themes that I thought emerged from the book was around the important role that libraries will continue to play in their communities. This came through so loud and clear through almost all the chapters, the strength of the role that the community is going to play. So I thought that was really interesting.

And I also thought that there was also some overlapping concerns that the contributors brought around some of the issues that already surfaced around the societal and economic and political environmental challenges that I thought were interesting and were worth thinking about and trying to address: things around again, the intellectual freedom challenges, but also some of the authors expressed concerns around the waning appreciation for the role of libraries, others talked about the increased barriers in publishing and purchasing. So there was a whole wide range, but they kind of interconnect in interesting ways, including issues around the climate and climate change and how that’s impacting libraries. So I think that it’s more that it helped to bring focus to some of the thinking that I had around libraries and what the future could hold.

Steve Thomas: Sometimes reading smart people can help make us smarter.

Sandra Hirsh: Definitely true.

Steve Thomas: You do end up sorting the book out into six different parts: landscape, community, equity and inclusion, organizations, library workers, and vision. Was it difficult for you to find different ways to chop it up, or did it fall into place pretty well because as you said you chose your contributors for a reason…

Sandra Hirsh: I did. I did choose people for reasons. For example, I chose Erin Berman knowing that she would probably focus on privacy and she did. So I definitely did have different reasons for inviting different people, but I will tell you this was a very hard task to do because no one chapter is only just focusing on one theme. There’s a lot of overlapping ways that they could have been classified or grouped because, unlike my textbook, where I invite a specific author to do a specific chapter that I know what they’re going to focus on, I thought Erin Berman would probably write something about privacy. I didn’t know 100 percent she was going to write. And some people actually surprised me. They didn’t focus on what I thought they might address.

So this part was very challenging but what I did was I started with looking at the way that Joe had categorized his to see if that was a good match for the content that I had in this book, and there’s some overlap. Like, for example, we both have sections that are called “community,” and then we have other areas that are similar. He called it “people,” and I changed it to “library workers,” because I felt more focused on the people supporting the libraries. Then he had one on “place” and I have one on “organizations” and that one was deliberate because I felt that it was really important to highlight that it’s not so much about a physical place that we’re talking about with the changes that we see in libraries. It’s really much more encompassing of virtual and physical services and facilities, so we needed to shift the language around that, but they’re similar. And then we both had ones around leadership and vision, and I had called it “vision.”

Where we really differed. It was a, where he had “stuff” and “my turn,” and I had something called “landscape” that I think was to set the stage for all the broader considerations, things around sustainability, around privacy, around storytelling, the things that are just broader and setting a broader perspective and landscape.

And then I had a whole cluster of chapters that focused on equity and inclusion, broadly conceived. I was really pleased to see that that focus area emerged in the book because I felt that that was such an important aspect of where libraries are playing an important role and really connected to our values as well as a library profession. So there’s quite a lot of similarities in terms of the topics, but I did make some changes based on the contributions and also with the shifts that we’re seeing in the field.

Steve Thomas: Yeah, equity and inclusion obviously is kind of part of the core of the library experience, but it is much more at the surface now of having discussions about it whereas ten years ago when Joe was doing the original book at what it was there, and it’s even in the original book at a certain level, but really, it’s part of the conversation now much more than it was then.

Sandra Hirsh: Yeah, I totally agree.

Steve Thomas: So, several of your contributors, as you said, it crosses over a lot. So, they talk about the impact of technology. What role do you think libraries will play in the coming years in democratizing access to emerging technologies? Like, we talked about AI earlier, or virtual reality, or augmented reality, things like that.

Sandra Hirsh: Yeah, I think this is a really important role that libraries are going to play in the future. We’re already seeing divisions, that digital divide widening, with regard to access techno to technology, and libraries are a great place to be able to provide support and narrow some of those gaps that we’re seeing. And so I think that there’s a number of things that libraries can do to help address this and democratize access.

One is, and libraries already do this, but is to provide spaces for people to engage and play with technology, experiment, and learn those new technologies. Libraries for a long time have been doing technology petting zoos and things like that, but I think that those are still going to be increasingly important as we move forward to give people the opportunity to even be exposed to some of these newer technologies and to have a chance to experiment with them so they get comfortable and maybe not be frightened of them and also be able to utilize them as well.

And I think also libraries will need to be playing an important role in providing training and resources to people to help them know how to use those, because there’s a lot of learning that needs to happen and that will include all kinds of literacy trainings, information literacy, digital literacy, AI literacy. There’s lots of opportunities for libraries to play an important role in helping to make sure that communities are have that knowledge and the training to be able to succeed in utilizing those new technologies. I’d say that also, I know that libraries are playing a really important role, and I’m sure we’ll need to continue in terms of providing technology that people can take with them to check out, to be loaned, because not everybody is going to be able to purchase and own their own equipment. So that’s another role for libraries in terms of democratizing access.

Also, you know, one of the other areas that we’re seeing is that there’s starting to be growing divisions with A. I. in terms of the paid versions and the free versions, and they’re creating divisions and access barriers for a large range of people as well, and libraries could potentially play an important role in providing access in that regard as well.

So I think that there is a lot of roles for libraries to help in this area, and also to help users and help people, I think, in the training aspect when I was talking about the literacy, and I think that’s going to be especially important, and particularly, not just in terms of accessing the technology, but also in making sure that people have the knowledge and the tools to be able to accurately assess what they get back from technology, too, in terms of the information, distinguishing truth versus fiction, and trying to understand and wade their way through all of that.

It’s an ongoing challenge. So I think that’s another aspect of this as well.

Steve Thomas: Yeah, and especially I think with things like AI, there’s ethical considerations in there as well, you know, they train themselves a lot on just scraping the internet and then plugging them into computers. We have lots of discussions about copyright in libraries and how does that work into all this and creativity and lots of angles to that.

Sandra Hirsh: Yes, I agree with all of that, and also there’s concerns around privacy and information security as well, that we need to be factoring into all of this.

Steve Thomas: And then you talked about community as a big factor that goes through it, and I agree, that shines through a number of the chapters, if not all of them. How do you think libraries, because we talk about local communities, but then we talk about sustainability of the planet and things like that so how do libraries balance those local community needs while also playing a larger role in those bigger, not only just climate change kind of things, but it’s a larger information ecosystem?

Sandra Hirsh: Yeah, that’s a great question and I think that that’s something that is probably a little challenging to balance, but I do think that libraries can do this in a variety of ways.

 One of the big other themes that came out of the book is the importance of collaborating with and partnering with others, and I think that’s a way that libraries can extend their impact and influence and broaden what they’re able to provide and do both at the local level, but also on a global level, and so I think that those are opportunities for libraries to be able to play a larger role in the global information ecosystem.

And also, I think, engaging to the extent possible and not everybody has these opportunities, but for those that can participating in global organizations like IFLA, the International Federation of Library Associations and organizations like that, which is doing a lot of work with the United Nations and on the sustainable development goals. I think that there’s a big opportunity there to extend our impact and influence in those areas. There’s a lot of documentation around the important roles that libraries are already playing in terms of sustainable development goals because pretty much everything a library is doing is around building sustainable communities and supporting those communities to be successful and to be thriving.

So I think that just being a library, we’re already contributing to this global information ecosystem by doing the things that we already do. We are making our contribution locally, which is also extending globally.

Steve Thomas: Yeah, and I know that there are lots of people involved with that, but I think Loida Garcia-Febo has done so much to help bridge that international-American thing, just from being president of the ALA, but then all the work that I always keep seeing her doing with the UN and IFLA and everything, and she’s been a great bridge, I think.

Sandra Hirsh: She has, and she contributed one of the book chapters. She didn’t focus on sustainable development goals, although she did focus on wellness, which is part of the sustainable development goals as well, but she took a very specific aspect of that and focused on the importance of wellness for library workers and how we take care of ourselves as well.

Steve Thomas: That’s very important. That’s one of the local needs, very local to yourselves.

Sandra Hirsh: Exactly. And, you know, it’s been stressful for library workers today, dealing with book challenges and some of the divisions in their communities. And so I’m really happy to have a chapter in the book that addresses that because I think that this is another difference from where we might have been in 2013 to today. I think it’s important for us to shine a light on that and to address what we can do and how we should be thinking about that for the future.

Steve Thomas: Yeah, and we had talked earlier a little bit about equity and inclusivity being top of mind. What are some actions that you feel like libraries can be taking now, or what’s suggested in the book that we could be doing now to work on those issues more?

Sandra Hirsh: Yeah, as we mentioned, this was an important focus that emerged in the book. We have a whole section devoted to this, and in those chapters, there’s a strong emphasis around the importance of creating these welcoming and inclusive environments that will be inclusive of everyone and that we are focused on removing barriers of access, especially those that are faced by marginalized communities.

So some of the kinds of actions that can be done, first, I would say we should be leaning into our core values of librarianship, because it’s all spelled out there. Those core values are access, equity, intellectual freedom and privacy, public good, and sustainability. So, I think we focus on those, then we’re going to be able to take our cues about what kind of actions we need to be following in order to achieve that. But being more specific, I would say that first of all, I think one action is I think we need to look at ourselves as library workers and make sure that we have the skills and that we need to be able to be inclusive and culturally inclusive and equity minded and building our own cultural competencies, so I think that that’s one thing that we can do.

But I also think that we need to be fostering those welcoming environments that I was talking about through inclusive programming and services. So there’s a great chapter in the book that is by Veronda Pitchford, who talked about the importance of developing and implementing programs that highlight and celebrate diverse cultures and histories. One of the things that she really highlights and focuses on with that is the importance of libraries doing that in a way that’s co-creating with those communities as opposed to just doing it. And so I think that that’s part of what we need to be doing as we are looking to foster that welcoming environment, developing those inclusive programming and services is making sure that we’re doing that in collaboration and in a way that makes sense and fits with the community that you’re serving.

I’d say that another area and another tangible thing that libraries can be doing is to be expanding access to resources as we were just talking about, and also making sure that we’re removing barriers that marginalized communities might be facing, maybe by providing more remote access to digital resources for those who can’t actually come into the library and making sure that things are affordable or free and providing those kinds of opportunities will be important.

I think also another way that libraries can focus on this area will be building partnerships and collaborations with others, so that we can make sure that we’re able to foster those diverse collections and resources and make sure that we are able to expand what we’re able to do. It can often extend what we’re doing.

We’ll also need to be managing those book and resource challenges, make sure we’re advocating for people’s rights to be able to read what they want. I think that libraries also need to be serving as these hubs of social connection. We need to have these places where people can have these crucial conversations and we can engage in civic participation and help empower these marginalized voices to be able to feel that their voices are welcomed.

So, basically, I think that what we need to do is we need to be serving the whole community, and bottom line is we need to be focused on inclusivity and not only just the strong voices in our community and make sure that we are representative of everyone and inclusive of everyone.

Steve Thomas: Yeah. And that’s what it’s important to bring in, like you said, the book challenges, because the biggest books that are being challenged are those that are about marginalized groups. And so they’re shutting out those voices.

Sandra Hirsh: It’s really true. And so we need to make some concerted efforts around these areas, and I’m not going to make light of it, it’s been a challenging time for libraries and advocates in these spaces, but it’s important for us to persevere in these areas, and it’s really, as I said, is baked into our core values for our whole field and our profession. So it’s important for us to be investing in these areas.

Steve Thomas: Yeah, and people do need to read the book because I was flipping through the, to see the chapters names and Veronda’s chapter is “Libraries, Trust, and the Cultural Booty Call.” So you’ve got to read the book to find out more about that.

Sandra Hirsh: I think she wins for the best title. Yes, it was certainly makes you want to read it.

Steve Thomas: So we talked about the importance of equity and inclusion as a skill for librarians, but what are some of the other changes that you think need to happen in the roles and skills of library staff in the coming decade? I know there’s one chapter in there kind of all about job descriptions for what the jobs are going to look like more in the future.

Sandra Hirsh: Yeah, and that chapter is interesting because it really is very futuristic. So it’s like imagining our world with robots and, you know, metaverse. And so, like, totally reframing what our job titles might look like in this future vision. So definitely a great read, but I’d say, as I looked across the chapters and when I think about from my own experiences working as an iSchool director, that I’d say that obviously technology skills will be important to continue to develop and build, and those are going to always be changing and evolving, so making sure that we are staying on top of that. And also, as you had mentioned, making sure we’re on top of how to manage and technologies in a responsible and ethical way is also going to be really important. So those kinds of things will definitely be a skill area that we need to invest in and evolve.

But I’d also say that it’ll be important for us to be developing our advocacy and storytelling skills and being able to represent the value that we provide in our communities and make sure people are aware. This will also come into play with regard to our conversations around book collections and so I think that having strong advocacy and storytelling skills will be another important area.

Additionally, the literacy skills and making sure that we have digital information and AI literacy skills, not just for our staff, but also making sure we have the skills in place to help train our community as well in these areas. So it goes both ways. I think we need it for ourselves and we need it for our communities.

And I think also having the ability to build partnerships and collaborations is going to be increasingly important. We don’t have enough resources in terms of personnel, time, reach to be able to do these things on our own. I don’t think that we can be an island. So I think that we need to be able to work collaboratively and in partnership with others in order to have more impact and add more value to our communities.

So I think those are some of the areas.

Steve Thomas: Other than just what all set of library staff need to know, what do you feel like are the leadership qualities that those of us who are leaders will need to be able to cultivate to be able to navigate these changes and challenges that are just going to keep coming over the next 10 years?

Sandra Hirsh: Right. So I think implicit in your question, I would say that leaders will need to be skilled in change management and knowing how to navigate those changes, to bring people along with them as libraries change and evolve in terms of how work is delivered, how we structure our services and programming that we do, but that will also involve leaders that are engaged in some of that foresight thinking and environmental scanning and monitoring that came through in a number of the book chapters, as well, as an important aspect that we need to be looking ahead and paying attention, not just in our own field, but also looking at the broader trends and implications, societal changes, so that we can be informed about what those are so we can better prepare libraries for those changes because libraries are a construct that fits within our community within the society, so we need, as those aspects change, as the community changes, as society changes, then that’s going to impact the library. And we already see things like that about how climate change is impacting libraries and this role that they’re playing in creating sustainable and resilient communities and serving as places for crisis centers and supporting as early first responders for their communities. So paying attention to those changes and those trends, and then thinking about what those implications are for libraries and how they need to change and evolve will be important. And as part of those changes, I’d say that, and this came through in one of the chapters was this idea of inclusive collaboration and making sure that we’re not only just hearing from external voices or, or from our users, but we also pay attention to our staff who have boots on the ground and who have really important, valuable perspectives and insights. In other words, making sure that we’re hearing from a diverse set of voices and not just listening to one set of voices as we think about what changes are needed.

And I know I already said this with the staff skills and competencies, but I would also reiterate the importance that role that leaders will need to play in terms of advocacy and storytelling and making sure that they that those that they work with and those that they communicate with fully understand the impact and the value that the library is playing. Libraries sometimes have a hard time quantifying and explaining the impact that they’re having on their communities. And so building up that skill and that competency is definitely one that is important.

Steve Thomas: And this is probably a good question for you as a library school professor. How do you hope that this book would help influence the next generation of librarians and library leaders and information professionals?

Sandra Hirsh: Yes, that’s a great question and I’m so glad that you asked it. I would say that what I hope and provide the next generation of library and information professionals is a few things. First, I hope that as they read this, that they understand the importance of understanding the broader issues that impact libraries and the societal, political economic issues that will shape as I was just talking about, like with the climate issues and the sustainable, how we need to be thinking about sustainable libraries.

And I think that also I’d like them to come away with an understanding that our work is going to change and library workers need to change also, how we deliver services to meet changing needs, and we’re going to continue to have evolutions in the way that we need to deliver. And I think that just being aware that there’s that constant change is important and also understanding that we need to evolve our skills and competencies to support that as well.

So I think those are some of the things, but what I want people to really walk away with, and I hope some of the readers do, is that while there’s some variation in the chapters, and some people might be more pessimistic, and some people might be more optimistic, what I hope people generally walk away with is a sense of hope and optimism for the future of libraries, because I truly believe in that, and I think that as long as we’re attuned to our communities and aligned with the needs of our community and also paying attention to those broader trends, I think that will be well positioned for the future.

 In my own chapter, I talk about this as well, and I draw some analogy between the resilience of redwood trees that have this superpower of being able to come back from these devastating wildfires that we’ve experienced here in California. Because they’re able to regrow and regenerate and have this really strong resilience, and I really believe that libraries have the same kind of superpower. We’ve demonstrated it over time. So many times people have counted libraries out, you know, “Oh, the internet it’s going to take libraries out. There’s no way they’re going to survive!” And yet here we are stronger and better than ever.

So I hope people walk away with this sense of hope and optimism and this recognition about the importance of adapting to change over time and that that will enable us to continue to evolve and grow and succeed in the future, and in fact, my own six words were “libraries are essential for thriving communities.” So, when I mentioned there were six words I asked people, those are my six words: libraries are essential for thriving communities.

Steve Thomas: Those are good six words. Well if it’s not you, 10 years from now, what advice would you give to the editor of Library 2050?

Sandra Hirsh: Oh, great question. I think that I would recommend that the next editor of this book takes a careful look at choosing who they want to bring, and to invite to the conversation. I know that Joe and I both took that very seriously. It’s very hard to choose. That was probably the hardest thing I did in the entire book, was thinking about who to invite. I really spent a lot of time on that.

So I think, making sure that you bring in a diverse set of voices that reflect different types of libraries, that reflect different types of environments, that different levels of seniority within the field. Those were all the considerations that I had. One of the areas that I had wanted to do, or considered doing that they didn’t, was I did think about bringing in non-library professional voices, like a user in the community or a politician who is supporting libraries and what their views were, so there might be some other ways to approach the book and what kind of voices you might want to have in the book in the future that I think might be worth exploring and considering also bringing in more voices of ancillary areas, maybe a publisher, maybe a vendor, maybe other kinds. I did consider many of those areas, but it’s actually very hard to just limit it to like 25 within the scope that I did and manage all that level of diversity, so my advice is to think through carefully who you’re inviting to the table for the future, because I think it’s good to have a good broad range of voices to contribute. But aside from that, I’d be very interested in hearing what, if there’s other approaches to this. I do think that the webcasts do add something to it and to be able to interview and hear people in their own voices and extending their thoughts beyond the constructs of a physical written page, I think is nice, but it might be done in a completely different way. There maybe will be in a metaverse environment and to do these kinds of interviews or there might be some other approach we might want to take, there might be some creativity in the future for how we might engage in that.

Steve Thomas: Yeah, the next edition of the book might just be a brain implant or something.

Well, I’m gonna wrap up with the last questions that I ask for everybody who’s on the show and they are, what was your first favorite book and what are you reading now?

Sandra Hirsh: Oh, great questions. I think that one of my first favorite books that’s jumping to mind for some reason, and this would’ve been a little bit, not like as a kid, like as a toddler, but like as a book I would’ve read on my own was I really loved Anne of Green Gables. It was a really good book for me. I loved her spirit and the antics that she got into.

And the book I’m reading right now is for my little cul de sac street, we have a neighborhood book club, and it’s a very intergenerational book club. We read the book, whoever’s hosting that particular night gets to pick the book. So we read a very wide range of books from nonfiction to fiction to short stories to poems. It can be anything, but the book that I’m reading right now for my book club is The Wind Knows My Name by Isabel Allende. I’m really enjoying it, but I’m just partially way through it, but it’s a really interesting story.

Steve Thomas: Do you remember what the book was that you chose when it was your turn to host?

Sandra Hirsh: Yes, the last book that I did, I did Lessons in Chemistry, which was great. I enjoyed it. It was a lot of fun to do that book, partially because I have a daughter who’s in the sciences and so also, I could resonate with some of the issues that she was encountering being a woman in a scientific man’s world. I enjoyed that book a lot.

Steve Thomas: Sandy, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. The book, again, is Library 2035: Imagining the Next Generation of Libraries. And people can go pick that up now, but thank you so much for coming on and if they want to follow up, the link is in the book with the webcast that they can follow up and hear more about the authors.

Sandra Hirsh: Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed talking to you.

Steve Thomas: Have a great day.

Sandra Hirsh: Thank you.