Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty

Steve Thomas:  Tamar, welcome to the podcast.

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: Thank you.

Steve Thomas:  What got you interested in the library field in the first place? What made you want to be a librarian?

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: When I was really young, and when I say really young, I mean, four years old, my mother always would frequent the library and was someone that I think you can say really took advantage of the services of public libraries. I think a lot of people sometimes are not fully aware the great community resource that can be but my mom was, and so we often went there. I thought it was really cool that I could get free books and bring them home, and I finally remember my first library card from Chicago Public Library and I checked out over 20 books. And so I was kind of this little girl and I was literally carrying a stack of books that I could hardly see over. I always felt safe and welcome and at home there.

Growing up in the inner city back in the seventies, which was referred to as a ghetto then, you know, the west side of Chicago, I always thought that nothing bad would happen in a library and there was a teacher there, or maybe she was a librarian and a teacher. She had a class about magic which was a free class, and we all had to perform magic tricks, and I tried to re perform one of Houdini’s tricks. And that was when I thought being a librarian was cool that she was leading this class about magic.

Steve Thomas: Yeah, that’s cool. Can you still do the trick today?

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: Not that particular because I’m a little too old to suspend myself on anything, but one trick I could do was there was a trick that I could ask you a series of questions and I could guess your age. I forgot the series of questions, but it was a math problem.

Steve Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Well, very cool. When did archives and rare books catch your eye as a, “Ooh, I should go into this part of librarianship.”

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: That is all courtesy of the Chicago History Fair, which I think is now called the Chicago Public History Fair, and your sophomore year in Chicago Public High Schools, it used to be that every student had to submit an entry to Chicago History Fair, and it required you to do primary source research. So applying those primary source literacy skills. And Leslie Casimir was my partner. We were doing ours on the Chicago’s Aragon Ballroom on the North Side. And so we had to do our research at Chicago Historical Society, which has since changed its name to Chicago History Museum and that was the first time I was in a reading room, archival reading room, and it was very different from the public library experience and there was white gloves and sometimes I’ve compared it to going to church in that they were bringing out these gray boxes of things and you have to seemingly also sign your life away to them because for every box we looked at at the architectural drawings, we had to fill out this long involved call slip for it, and so I felt it was something sacred. And I also liked being in charge of taking care of something that was precious and rare. There was something really dutiful about it. It’s hard to explain, but I could tell that the staff there was really entrusted with something.

Steve Thomas: Yeah. And what positions did you have before your current one, which institutions?

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: I’ve always been in special collections until recently when I went into administration. So my first job in special collections was at Princeton University and Firestone Library. I was a special collections assistant. Then I became a special collections assistant at the Whitney Museum of American Art in New York.

After that, I decided to get my master’s in library science and I went to Simmons. And I was at Harvard Botany Archives, as well as Houghton Rare Book and Manuscript Repository JFK, I worked at John F. Kennedy Presidential, so a lot of places, but mostly academic libraries, particularly Ivy League. I’ve been told I’m the only librarian in America or whatever, who has worked at more Ivies than any other librarian.

Steve Thomas: Wow, very cool. The Smithsonian Libraries merged with the Smithsonian Institution Archives in 2020, and you’re the first director of that merged institution. What drew you to that position in the first place?

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: So many emotions. Well, one, obviously it’s the Smithsonian. So obviously, I mean, when they when they reached out to me about the position, at the time I was really enjoying my job at Cornell, and was not looking to leave Ithaca for any reason. And when I heard about it, I thought, wow, that’s an amazing job. It’s the Smithsonian, imagine being the librarian of the Smithsonian. I was struck that I had had little interaction with other librarians at the Smithsonian, but I knew that this was something that was an important job, especially having worked in a museum library before. Just thinking of all the wonderful opportunities and the potential to also have this juxtaposition of libraries and museum. So yeah, that was the first thing that attracted it to me.

Steve Thomas: Yeah, I mean, it’s fantastic. When you ever go to DC. That’s always on the list. I got to go, got to go to something. I mean, I’m a space nerd. So it’s always Air and Space, got to hit Air and Space.

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: You know, and Steve to be honest with you, whenever I came to DC before, it was the only thing I would do. If I only had two hours, I would always pick a Smithsonian museum to go to, and my favorite one was the Museum of African Art, and right across from it was the Freer and Sackler at the time, but now the National Museum of Asian Art, and that’s what I would do, those two things, and honestly, I’ve never been to many other museums in DC.

Steve Thomas: How do the libraries and archives support and contribute to the broader mission of the Smithsonian?

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: That’s a really good question. People ask me what does it mean when you say that the Smithsonian Libraries and Archives is the world’s largest museum library and archive system, and we indeed are.

 I think you can find the answer a little bit in that we support the world’s largest museum system. We’re 21 libraries and a large institutional archive, so the first line of our service is to the staff of the Smithsonian, particularly the curators in the museum. Each museum has a library research center that’s connected to it. For example, Postal Museum. I’m saying that one, because it’s one that many people don’t think about. I know you said Air & Space is your favorite, and yes, I do have a library for Air & Space, but the Postal Museum has a really great librarian, Baasil Wilder, and his library basically holds the resources that the curators need to do their research, to do the exhibitions, and the good work that they do there. So he has a lot about philatelic collections. It’s really amazing. The Postal Museum Library has everything about postcards you’d ever want to know. They have a large gift card collection, because there’s such a thing as mail art. It’s some incredible mail art. And so that’s how we serve the mission. Sometimes when people think of a museum library, and I’m even thinking of my time at the Whitney, they think of it as something that’s like the back of the house, but I always say at the Smithsonian where we are at the forefront of research.

They are open to the public. Just have to reach out to us. I think the back of the house idea comes from when you come into the Smithsonian let’s just say Air & Space, for example, you go in, you see that it spans planes and rockets. The library for Air & Space is actually at the Udvar-Hazy facility in Chantilly, Virginia, so the library either may not be in the actual museum, or if it’s in the actual museum, embedded there, it’s not in a public space. You usually need special access to get there.

Steve Thomas: And is that something that you want to make more available to the American public?

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: Well, I think there’s, like, two prongs to that answer. One, because they’re physically kind of hidden from people, there’s not a whole lot we can do about security and getting people into curatorial areas. Also, those are areas where we have other collections, for example, Natural History, around the library, there are a lot of collections that relate to the museum work. I’ve seen stuffed tigers and all sorts of things back there. So that’s something that we can’t really remedy without a lot of capital funding to get libraries in the front and visible.

The second response I have to that question is, I think a lot of that is on us as Smithsonian Libraries and Archives to promote our message, get our staff seen more in the way of collaborations with other libraries, me getting out there more. I’ve received a lot of compliments since I’ve taken a position that people see me out there and speaking.

It is something I hope to change, but just to let everyone know, it’s not something that’s going to happen overnight because really the physical barriers are, we do have to keep our collection safe, and that’s where the libraries are, and I don’t think we’re the only museum library in that predicament. I know when I was at the Whitney, we were in the basement of the Whitney Museum and you needed card access.

Steve Thomas: I know Dr. Hayden is doing similar things with the Library of Congress, trying to make it more open and I mean, its main core mission, of course, is to be the Library of Congress, but also trying to make it a library for the people as well and doing lots of good exhibits and opening up areas and so that’s great to see from both institutions.

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: And our exhibits are very visible in public. We have two wonderful cases in Natural History Museum, “Nature of the Book” is a great exhibit that we have up there. And then if you go over to the American History Museum, we have Music HerStory, it’s there right adjacent to the Dibner Library.

Steve Thomas: Very cool. I have a sister that lives in Maryland and so get up there every so often. I did have a sister who lived, like, downtown D. C. and would take the kids to the zoo. Because, of course, yay, free zoo!

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: And we have a Zoobrarian. His name is Stephen Cox.

Steve Thomas: Wonderful. So how do the Smithsonian Libraries incorporate diversity, equity, and inclusion in its collections, programs, exhibits, services, etc.?

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: I have to give all the credit to my staff who had already done a lot of good work in that area. We have a wonderful program, a consortium in SLA entitled Biodiversity Heritage Library, or BHL, and Martin Kalfatovic is the program director for that. One of the things that they’re doing is they’re looking at taxonomies and doing a lot of decolonization through collection description, some reparative description.

That’s one area in which we’re doing a lot of things. I think, I have to say this as compared to some of the academic libraries I went to, by nature of us having the 21 libraries and the archive, take, for example, we have the National Museum of African American History and Culture, Shauna Collier is there who builds those collections, and we have National Museum of Asian Art building those collections. The microcosm of things that we bring in are pretty diverse already, just because that’s something that the Smithsonian is very known for on its own. Where I think we could use a lot of improvement is diversity of staff. would be great to have more leaders of color in the organization. Also I would like to see us pay more attention to LGBTQ materials that are coming in, and also diversity of users. That’s something that you don’t think about that much with libraries. But like I said, our primary users are the curators of the museums, but I think we could do a lot more outreach in terms of letting people know in ethnic studies heritage areas, the things that we have.

Steve Thomas: Yeah, in an overwhelmingly white field, two of the most prominent positions in American librarianship are held by black women: you and Dr. Hayden. I mean, the two of you and then the National Archivist maybe are the three big American government library positions. Can you share some of the unique challenges and opportunities that you’ve encountered as a black woman in your short time in this role and or any other prominent roles in the field?

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: So I’m going to start by talking about, I guess my overall career and could focus a little bit on the Smithsonian. I think I’m really fortunate that I’ve had the opportunities in my career to be allowed to grow. And I’m glad that I am now seeing more people of color in leadership positions, but back when I started librarianship in the early 2000s, there were very few African American university librarians and deans, and now there’s some really great Black women in leadership. You mentioned Dr Hayden. Kara Olidge is a very good friend of mine who’s director at the Getty Research Institute. Elaine Westbrooks is Dean at Cornell, where I used to be.

One challenge is that sometimes when a person of color comes into these roles, there is an idea that you’re there to repair something and that labor is put on you. You’re the unicorn who’s supposed to bring all this wonderful change in very short time, and I think people should remember that change is something that requires shared accountability to even bring diversity, inclusion, and I want to stress belonging. It’s not just about bringing in brown bodies, you know black bodies, tan bodies because that person has to feel as though they belong.

And so after the George Floyd tragedy, a lot of libraries began doing knee jerk diversity. You know, we’re going to hire someone, mostly African American, you saw a lot of women come into roles. I’m one of them, and now that it’s maybe three years later, some of us are experiencing a lot of challenges around, “You’re not doing the things we thought you would do. And really 2022 is not that long ago when you think about it. So when I go and talk to people now, one of the things I talk about is about legacy trauma, toxic libraries, and how it can’t just be one person repairing this work.

 I mean, when I came to the Smithsonian, I think someone referred to me as “You’re our unicorn.” And I said, “You know, unicorns are mythical beings.” Everyone has faults, makes mistakes. I will, call me on it when I do. In terms of collections building too, there were a lot of libraries that were just kind of grabbing all the Black stuff after George Floyd or digitizing all the Black stuff. And I said, “You know, you have to embed community in what you’re doing. Otherwise, it’s just empty actions.” You know, great. You digitized a wonderful Asian American collection, African American. It’s about the engagement that’s important. So I guess, Steve, just to wrap up the answer to it, I think everyone needs to concentrate on bringing their authentic selves to work. Respect me, respect me as a librarian.

Steve Thomas: But I think it is a good role model to see you and Dr. Hayden in those positions for encouraging people to get into the profession. They’re like, “Oh, I could be the Librarian of Congress. I could be this, that, or the other!”

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: My favorite thing, honestly, is bringing people to librarianship. It gives me so much joy. I wanted to give a shout out to Sandra Aya Enimil, who is at Yale. She is a copyright librarian there. I knew Sandra over 10 years ago when I was at the Black Metropolis Research Consortium. She was finishing her law degree and working at the Chicago Defender, and I said to her, “You know, you should be a librarian.” I didn’t think she’d take me up on it but I set up a meeting with her and Peter Hertel, who’s known as being the guru of copyright. He talked to her because I said, really with the law degree, your ticket is written in librarianship. You can do so much, and one day she wrote me, she said, “Tamar, I enrolled at Urbana, Illinois.” And she recently sent me a gift and she said, “Thank you for getting me into this field.” And, you know, that’s the best. That’s just the best.

Steve Thomas: Yeah. So I know you probably get asked this all the time, so I’m not going to ask you for one specific item, but are there some favorite items that you’ve been able to get actual hands-on time at the Smithsonian that you’re like, “Oh, wow, I’m actually holding this?”

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: A recipe book that belonged to the founder of the Smithsonian. He had just wrote his kind of annotations about his favorite recipes, and so I think that was a wonderful, wonderful item. In the American Art and Portrait Gallery Library, Anne Evenhaugen has the most incredible artists’ books you’ve ever seen but there is a recent acquisition she had that chronicled the bizarre happenings around a murder of a civil rights worker who was murdered in a car. Her first name was Viola and the rest of her name is escaping me right now, but the book is the actual length of a car and it’s pretty incredible. And one of the things I can say that just amazes me every day about the librarians we have at the Smithsonian, they all just have a really good eye for finding really unique things. They really keep the curators in mind when they’re collecting, so everything that they bring out is kind of jaw dropping. And I’m not, I’m not exaggerating at all.

So you said that Air and Space was your favorite.

Steve Thomas: Yeah.

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: So I had never been to Air and Space museum before until I came here, because when we would come to the Smithsonian, it was always other friends of mine who wanted to go and I would skip that one. So, I had to start going because of course I have a library there, and do you know that we have Salary Ride’s book collection?

Steve Thomas: No, but now I want to go again.

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: And the archives at Air and Space has her archives. I got to see the original transcript for the first landing on the moon. So that, you know, that one giant step. So the job has made me look at the research ecosystem in many different ways, because I’m mostly a humanities person, but I’ve begun to cultivate a love for the natural sciences in particular and botany and you know, there’s 21 different rabbit holes you could go down with each one.

Well, there’s also Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute, so we call it STRI. That’s my library in Panama, the Earl S. Tupper Library. We’re just in the process of hiring a new person. We will be announcing who that is soon. You get to go to the rain forest, and they do a lot of research on environmental studies, and so, yeah, it’s made my life more multi-dimensional and layered.

Steve Thomas: Right. Well, I mean, before you did the Postal Museum, you just probably thought mail was mail or whatever, and now you see this mail art and these beautiful stamps and just…

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: Well, and I have a piece of trivia about stamp commemoration that I never realized until I came here. Recently I think they unveiled the stamp for Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and I did not realize that you had to be deceased to be on a stamp. It just never struck my mind, so they were talking to me about the process of a commemorative stamp, what goes into that or, for instance, the National Portrait Gallery. We recently did a lecture with Kenturah Davis who did the national portrait for Ava DuVernay and talked about portraiture and the meaning of that. So, our library, American Art and Portrait Gallery Library collects a lot of biography for the curators to do research on the portraits, and it makes you kind of look at research from a different lens.

Steve Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, I can just imagine being there, because a lot of us are in the profession just because we have some curiosity about us always. And so you’re always learning and at a place like that, you’re always going to be learning like just all over the place.

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: Like I said, I always use Postal Museum as an example, because people, I mean, they had a recent exhibit up about baseball, and you might look at what is this Postal Museum doing about that? But things like mailing uniforms are something that they were involved in. And, Baasil, he has a wonderful rare book collection that chronicles the genesis of the postal system. There are periodicals about mail that I never knew existed and also the photographs that they have as well. One that really always stands out with me was, it was documenting how to deliver mail to soldiers during the war on ships. Like, how do you get mail to someone who’s on a submarine? And so those are things that we just don’t think about.

I’m going to say my last two things about the Postal Museum. They have mailboxes for almost everything. So there was a mailbox for receiving milk and eggs. They also had this little mailer for bees. So, you know, for your apiary, the little box, it looked like a little beehive, and I was just like, wow, who would have known?

Steve Thomas: That’s amazing.

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: So I had to geek out for you.

Steve Thomas: Thank you.

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: Well, now you have to come.

Steve Thomas: Yeah, no, I’m definitely gonna come and I’m going to the Postal Museum and I’m going to Panama and I’m going to go to the space library to see Sally Ride’s books and…

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: Yeah, which has a huge hanger and they have they have comic books about aviation and space. Every comic book imaginable. And that’s something I didn’t… you know, I just thought, okay, it’s a bunch of planes and rockets. I love comics, and when you think about Marvel Comics, a lot of them display planes and future ships.

Steve Thomas: Yeah, yeah. I do want to ask, since you are a head of an institution that obviously highly values primary sources, when do you think it’s important to really start teaching kids to use them in education?

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: So there’s a class that I used to do. I used to go around to public schools on my own when I had spare time and I would teach a class on rare books, making artists books, and about working with manuscripts and archives. I think the youngest age that I’ve had was maybe seven, and they understood it. Honestly, some of them grasped it even more than some of the teens. And when I was at the Schomburg Center as Director of Collections and Services, they had a program called Junior Scholars. They still do. Every Saturday all these wonderful kids, over a hundred, were coming to the Schomburg, and we would give classes on archives and manuscripts.

You can never start too early, but they do have to understand what they’re working with and understand the difference between a primary and a secondary source. When I did do the Chicago History Fair, the only thing I could really critique them on, maybe a little negatively, is that they didn’t explain to us the importance of a primary source, so they kind of just sent us to these archives. We didn’t know what to encounter. I don’t think we knew how to interrogate the material and because a lot of times when you see something in print, you always take it as gospel, but they didn’t really teach us that, should we see that this is this authentic document, is the writer of the letter being judgmental in any way? So those are the things they could have helped us with. And so if anyone does something now for younger people, we’re in this world of disinformation and misinformation and fake news. A lot of people believe that archives are neutral. They’re not. And so it’s not only bringing them to the resources but teaching them how to interrogate and interpret those resources is important.

 One of the biggest shocks I’ve ever had, and everyone may laugh, but my mom was a Kennedy-phile. She loved the Kennedy’s. It was back in the day when everyone who was African American had this picture of Kennedy, Martin Luther King and, and I think it was sometimes Malcolm X or Bobby Kennedy on their wall, and when I got the JFK internship, I was ecstatic, my mom’s going to be proud of me. I’m going to see wonderful things. In reading the archives, I could see a little bit about how dismissive they were of some of their children, particularly of J. P. K. Jr., Joseph P. Kennedy Jr., who died really young, and when he passed away, I was feverishly looking for a letter for someone to express sorrow, and it didn’t happen. And then when I read the Joseph P. Kennedy, Sr. Diaries and saw the N word and how derogatory he was towards Blacks and Japanese, it really colored my view of things and those are not the things that you always see in a museum.

Steve Thomas: Yeah, but it can be important context, getting to know the actual person and not the mythological person.

Are there any upcoming exhibitions that you would want to tell listeners about?

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: Within the next year, we’re still in our current exhibition cycle, and like I said, we have Nature of the Book that’s up, which is really wonderful to me. It’s amazing. And we have Music HerStory that’s up, but we’re working on an exhibit about artists’ books as well as thinking about doing some collaborative exhibits with another museum library, and I can’t go into detail about that as much.

Steve Thomas: But when you hear about it, you’ll know what it is. You’ll know what you were referring to. Well, you’ve been in the director position for almost two years. What do you feel your biggest accomplishments have been so far, and what do you still want to accomplish?

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: I came at a really difficult time in terms of, we are still going through the integration of Smithsonian Institution Archives and Smithsonian Libraries and the SLA. When I came, it was Omicron. And so first, I had to tackle the task of bringing the staff back to work after not being at work for 2 years. It was a lot longer than in academic or public libraries, except I think New York Public Library might have went back to work after we did. I know that when I was at Cornell, we went back to work, the lockdown was in March of 2020, Cornell started slowly rolling librarians back in in September of 2020.

So I come to the Smithsonian Libraries and Archives, December 2021 but it was really January ’22. We had to come back to work. And then, we still had to finish the work, the actual work of the integration, and so that’s where we are right now, but there are some things I am proud to talk about because you can always get a lot of honesty from me.

I think when you first get a job, especially if it’s somewhere like the Smithsonian, you’re like, “Wow, I’m going to do all these wonderful things.” And things work slowly in the federal system than they do others. There’s a lot of levels of accountability, a lot of layers and a lot of constituents, you know, I serve at the direction of the Secretary at the Smithsonian Lonnie Bunch, who’s amazing to work with, but I also do my work in consort with 20 other directors of the Smithsonian, and so one thing that’s been really rewarding to me is having my foot in the museum world. It’s new muscles that I’m developing around that because it’s a different way of approaching research. So I hired Dr. Wesley Chenault in I believe was November of last year as my Associate Director for Strategic Initiatives and Programs so we could begin thinking more about the programs that we do and scholarship in just a more strategic way. I put a lot of time into building collaborations with other libraries outside of the Smithsonian. I think, you know, some people may wonder why that’s important, but, you know, like you said, Steve, people have to know what we’re doing and why we’re here, and I have a question for you, not to flip it on you, but when you thought of Smithsonian Libraries and Archives, what do you think of?

Steve Thomas: My initial thing was the back of the house, supporting the staff, mostly that that was kind of what they were doing. Basically like the Library of Congress, doing the Congress part of like, “Oh, the curators come to them and ask questions. They do research and bring back reports or purchase items and things like that.” So yeah, I didn’t really think much at all about… I think it’s because it’s the museum part, because I was like, “Well, the museum’s doing exhibitions and stuff so why would the library…?”

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: So that last sentence you said, you know, the museums are doing exhibitions, so why would the libraries? So that’s a lot of the challenge that I’ve had to navigate since I’ve been here is that if you’re thinking that, imagine what it is here at the organization, and so I always say we’re in our cocoon phase right now. People always often talk about the butterfly at the end of transition, but the cocoon phase, that’s really important too. You’re the caterpillar, and right now we’re still finding our way about what we want to become.

We know that we’re the world’s largest museum library system. That’s an incredible honor, but we also have to know, what does that mean in the greater research library ecosystem? What does it mean when we work with the Library of Congress, for example, or many people don’t think of the National Library of Agriculture, or the National Library of Medicine, which is also federal.

We’re the only museum library that’s an ARL Library, Association of Research Libraries, but I see that even the academic libraries don’t really know how to respond to the collections that we have. So, I kind of feel that my greatest accomplishment has been just getting us out there more. I really do, and I’m looking forward to just doing more things with other libraries and librarians. I’m really pleased to report that California Rare Books School had a week long intensive series of five classes here. That never happened before. And yeah, it was students coming in, learning about our collections, being taught by our librarians.

Steve Thomas: Very cool. That’s great, and I hope people listen to this and learn about all the stuff that you can do and think of ways that they can partner with you at their institution.

Thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate it. And again, letting listeners know all about and letting me know all about all these things. You’ve excited me again about going back to all these different ones. I think the Postal Museum probably would have been one of the lower on my list before, but now it’s like way up high.

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: Oh, and American History is great.

Steve Thomas: Yeah. So I’ve been to that one many times. I’ve been to about half of them probably, but I had to…

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: The libraries or the museums?

 Steve Thomas: Well, the museums.

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: Yeah, see, see what I mean?

Steve Thomas: I’ve been to zero of the libraries, but next time I go, I will go to one.

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: I also, not to let my archives be left out, we have a wonderful program, the Audiovisual Preservation Initiative, AVMPI, who is doing a great job trying to preserve all of the audiovisual materials across the Smithsonian pan-institutionally. So that’s a great program and we have some wonderful things in the archives. I just want you to viewers to know, please reach out to us and come, please come visit.

Steve Thomas: Definitely. Get in touch with them and they will get you there.

Tamar Evangelistia-Dougherty: Oh, I was really excited about doing this and I’ve listened to your podcast before and I’m really honored. All right. Thanks!

Steve Thomas: Bye..